THIS IS THE FULL TRANSCRIPT OF DIESEL PERFORMANCE PODCAST EPISODE: P0700, ALLISON TROUBLE SHOOTING
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Jamie:
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Speaker 2: The Diesel Performance Podcast contains explicit language.
Paul Wilson: Thank you for joining us again. This is Paul Wilson.
Danny Voss: I'm Danny Voss.
Paul Wilson: You're listening to The Diesel Performance Podcast. Had some great episodes here lately, huh Danny? A lot of fun in the studio.
Danny Voss: Man, we're always bringing our best effort.
Paul Wilson: I mean you don't know this yet, but I put out another Facebook Live today for pre-recording.
Danny Voss: I already saw it.
Paul Wilson: Oh, you did see it? Okay, good, good. Lift pump episode, you and Chris Ehmke, great job.
Danny Voss: Yeah, we beat the lift pump episode down pretty hard.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, or at least a mediocre performance at the very minimum.
Danny Voss: Thanks.
Paul Wilson: We did also recently have on KJ the Diesel Power Magazine editor. I thought that was an awesome episode. That was some great insight to some of the behind the scenes, somebody who's inherited that project and now has to run with it for a long period of time. That was really good stuff and, yes, I hear you KJ. How would you do that test? Okay. 30K budget build has been blowing up our Facebook feed. It's just been awesome, hasn't it Danny?
Danny Voss: Huge. I really want to build this truck. I want to buy an '06 and put it up to 950 horse, just like I did in the build.
Paul Wilson: I will say it was really funny to me to see how many guys got on the post and wrote about how a six liter or a 12 valve would crush it in this competition. I kept telling them you need to listen to the episode. I would never pick one of those two. Maybe a 12 valve, but I would never pick a 6.0 to win it. You got to know the judge, guys. You got to know the judge and know why I'm biased.
Danny Voss: Maybe we need to qualify our judge?
Paul Wilson: Yeah, we do definitely need a more unbiased judge if we want that. All right, I did also want to say a big shout-out to the Pulling Radio Network. Monday nights they are now live broadcasting the Diesel Performance Podcast. If you've never checked them out before, simply hit Google search Pulling Radio Network and you will find all of the information that they have. They actually have a ton of stuff on sled pulling, so if you're into it, check them out.
Danny Voss: That's pretty cool our episode's going to be on there.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Danny Voss: Don't forget about Caleb McKinney. We had him last week.
Paul Wilson: Caleb McKinney last week, so that just went out. That's going out live today, which is why it didn't make my notes. Great call. Caleb McKinney, what a blast. Caleb, I am sorry. I did kind of ... I went crazy.
Danny Voss: If you didn't listen to that episode I want you to go back and check it out. Paul got really caught up with all the blogs you've been doing and you just spewed all over this guy, and it was awesome to hear.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, little bit of passion came through on that one. A little bit of info dump on why not to delete. Caleb was a great guy. He was a great sport about it. I really feel like he did take the intent there, which was just to educate. It did come off a little passionately. As we listen to the outtake on it, we were like ugh.
Danny Voss: Yeah, I would step if it was false. If that information that you said was completely false, I would have stepped up and said something, but you didn't. My jaw was on the ground, Paul. That was ...
Paul Wilson: Then of course, guys, Danny and I have been writing a lot of articles for the Diesel Tuner's blog. Go to duramaxtuner.com, click on Diesel Tuner's blog. That'll take you over. You can read all the article we write about. You can see all the stuff we talk about and we research and we do that's outside the podcast. We'd really love you guys to get involved on that stuff. Today, enough with all of that nonsense. Today we get to have to some fun, huh Danny?
Danny Voss: Are you going to take it easy on our guest today? Because I'm pretty sure he'd take you.
Paul Wilson: I don't know. Today we're so grateful to have Phil Grandinetti. Thank you so much, Phil.
Phil G.: You're welcome. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Paul Wilson: Phil, give us a little bit of your background. Why are you here today?
Phil G.: Well I'm the Service Manager for CPS. My background is I worked as a dealer technician for over 30 years, specializing in transmissions. I'm a Certified Transmission Specialist, or a Master Technician in transmissions for GM. I'm a Certified Master Technician with ASE. I'm here to give my opinion, I guess, on the subject we're talking about.
Paul Wilson: He says it so humbly. You're here because you're an expert, Phil.
Phil G.: Yes.
Danny Voss: Because he knows his stuff.
Paul Wilson: He's like, you know, I could just give my opinion. Right, because I would love to hear your opinion. Phil, before we get started on anything serious talking P0700 Allison troubleshooting today with you, tell me how you got your start in diesel performance.
Phil G.: Actually I didn't get a start in diesel performance until just recently, actually. Like probably within the last six, seven years, when I met Nick.
Paul Wilson: Really?
Phil G.: Yeah. Friend of mine, or mutual friend of all of ours, is Brett. I worked with him, then worked for him. He's always been into diesel trucks. The best way I can describe this is is working for GM on diesel engines, on trucks, I started in 1979. I was involved in all the diesels they put into Cadillacs, Oldsmobiles, Buicks, light pickup trucks, and those diesels weren't very good.
Paul Wilson: They were terrible.
Phil G.: Right. They were prone to fail. As a technician, we spent all of our time working on those. The lots would be full of dead diesels. You develop a real deep seated hate for them. Later on when they came out with the 6.2, 6.5 they actually had a truck engine in them. It was better, but it would still had a lot of failures. Duramax came out, I left the dealer in '06, so Duramax has been out for five, six years at that point. We really hadn't seen any failures on them to speak of. Nothing major. I didn't have a lot of background in them, didn't really have an opinion on them. I still probably hated them.
Then I started hanging out with Brett. He had an '01 that he had had a lot of work done to. I gained respect one night at the drag strip. He towed a friend of ours' car up in a big trailed with his truck. I brought my car up there. He unhooked his truck from the trailer, ran faster than my car, hooked his truck back up to the trailer, and towed it home. Now I'm paying attention. I've a done of work on Brett's trucks. I've done a lot of work on Duramaxs throughout the years since then. Done a lot of work with Nick. I was one of the guys that helped build the Apache Max. That's pretty much my story.
Paul Wilson: I was going to say, two of my favorite trucks that I've ever seen built with CPS are Duramax Turners. Phil's been involved with that, of course, being the Apache Max, the 58 Apache on an '03 Duramax built for sled pulling. [Brett Keel's 00:07:33] truck, which is my all time favorite truck. It is a regular cab, short bed, two wheel drive with a nasty set of twins, running low 10s. Has he busted the nines yet?
Phil G.: Not yet.
Paul Wilson: Not yet.
Phil G.: He ran 10:23 this last weekend at Diesel Days of Byron.
Paul Wilson: Cold day and a driver mod, that thing's got nines in it no question.
Phil G.: Yup.
Danny Voss: A driver mod.
Paul Wilson: Brett don't listen to the podcast, I can get away with saying that stuff. I wouldn't say it if he was here.
Danny Voss: What is he, like ... He's like 6'8", man. He'd crush you like a bug. If you were going to do a driver's mod, at least pick me.
Paul Wilson: Danny, you had some pretty good times this weekend. You got to pull out in the Colorado, huh?
Danny Voss: Yeah, I was racing the 2.8 and I was telling people, "Don't be hating when I'm two-point-eighting."
Phil G.: He's been waiting since Saturday, Saturday to Friday, for that line to get it into a podcast. I love it.
Danny Voss: Oh man, the 2.8. I was holeshotting deleted LMLs. They would pass me after 5-600 feet, but I was getting that tree on them.
Paul Wilson: You did tree just about everbody you lined up against.
Danny Voss: Yeah.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, I thought it was nice when were watched the other deleted Colorado there run within half a second of your time. You were kind of kicking around the idea the only thing they deleted was a warranty.
Danny Voss: A deleted 2.8 four cylinder sounded like garbage.
Paul Wilson: Garbage. Oh, it was terrible, wasn't it?
Danny Voss: Worst sound ever.
Paul Wilson: Phil, did you hear it too?
Phil G.: Yes I did. Yes I did.
Paul Wilson: Oh, just awful.
Danny Voss: Don't get me started.
Phil G.: Sounded like a long, nasty fart.
Danny Voss: That's it.
Paul Wilson: Phil, we are here today to talk about P0700 codes and Allison transmissions. I love the Allison. I know a lot about it. We've had on the guys from Suncoast before, both Andrew Murdock when he was with them and-
Danny Voss: Dallas Penn.
Paul Wilson: Dallas Penn, absolutely. We've talked to several other guys. Can you just give us a quick overview? How is the Allison different than other pickup truck transmissions or diesel pickup truck transmissions?
Phil G.: Primarily it's a purpose-built truck transmission. It's built to be behind a diesel. It's built to withstand the torque that diesels produce. Typically other brands use a transmission that's a version of a gas engine or even a light truck or car transmission. From the get go, when they introduce the Duramax with the Allison, it's been a good combination. It's been strong and reliable.
Paul Wilson: I always feel like one of the things we hear guys love about the Allison is how smooth it shifts, and that's because of its clutch-on, clutch-off strategy, as opposed to some of the older models that had progressive-clutch strategies.
Phil G.: Right. Yeah, with an Allison it has to release a clutch and apply a clutch to make the next gear change. From the beginning they were defueling the shift points so it smooths everything out.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, and that really is. I mean when you drive, when you can feel the difference between the old style and the new style of transmissions where you're getting this feeling that all the power's on the ground, that you're getting clear gear changes, but it's smooth. It clicks off the shifts as you go down the road. It's not a big, dramatic to-do, except for under some certain circumstances.
Danny Voss: They keep getting better. I feel like every time they come out with a new type of motor, I feel like the transmission's improved too.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, there have been a few changes throughout the years. '01 to '05 they ran the five speed that's powered by an AL5TCM, which is an RPO code for the actual computer that runs that transmission. Then in '06 to 2009, it was a six speed with an A40. Then around 2009, 2010 it was still a six speed, but they put an A50 controller with it. They look identical. You'd never be able to tell the difference. When the LMLs came out they beefed up the transmission, so the 2011 and newer, those are definitely all A50s. They're a beefier transmission, we find that they can hold more power every time they come out with a new system. The '01 to '05s, I would say they're good up to right around 400 horsepower to the rear wheels, measured on the Dyno here at Duramax Tuner.
Danny Voss: Stock.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, stock up to about 400 horsepower. Then the six speeds, they're good to about 430 if we're talking about an LBZ or an LMM. Then the LMLs, they can take 550, maybe start squeaking that torque converter around 600 horsepower in an LML. That is still a six speed, but it can handle more power for sure.
Phil G.: Yeah, they refined it. They've applied clutches with more pressure and more clutch materials, so they just keep improving it. Every year they make the changes it's a real good change. It's definitely noticeable and, longevity-wise, it's made a difference.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, absolutely.
Danny Voss: Nice rundown on the years, by the way.
Paul Wilson: One of those things that we try to remember because, again, Danny and I do get to talk to people about them everyday or go our and race them on the weekends or sled pull in Danny's case more often than not. We are going to dive back in with Phil and talk more about the P0700 trouble code, the symptoms, the problems, and the solutions right after a word from our sponsor.
Thank you guys so much for checking out today's episode. If you'd like to get more information about P0700, Allison transmissions, or the DT750, go over to DuramaxTuner.com and click on the Diesel Tuner's blog. That's going to kick you up to the most recent article I published about P0700 and Allison troubleshooting. Make sure you request more information and thanks so much for listening.
All right, Phil, so we're back and we're talking about Allison problems.
Phil G.: Okay.
Paul Wilson: Okay. It's really common to have a newer truck and never have an issue with it, but on some of the olders, especially the five speeds, there's some real common problems. We even see that after guys are turning the power up and giving some use and abuse to their trucks, that they're finding some of these problems on the six speed stuff as well. Can we talk about some common symptoms, some common problems that we have with an Allison transmission?
Phil G.: Sure. Typically the problems start to occur when you start adding power or if it's a truck that just is abused. Everybody's seen that truck. That's the truck that has the ... In fact, I just saw one the other day. It was the guy that came out and did some of our excavating out here.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Phil G.: It's got a giant box on the box, steel box that's full of tools. It has 10,000 pounds of tools in it. He's pulling a trailer with a Bobcat on it. This is how that truck lives everyday. The truck that I'm talking about right now, he had 250,000 miles on it with the original transmission.
Paul Wilson: You know that thing only has two speeds too, because he works there, he doesn't own that thing. It has on the floor and on the brake. That's the only way it's driven.
Phil G.: Absolutely. He hasn't added any power. He hasn't done any modifications to it. He drives it probably the same way everyday. It lives. As soon as you start adding power to them, we've all seen it, and typical symptoms are you're going to get a limp mode. You're going to get a P0700 and it'll go into limp mode, usually caused by slipping clutches.
Paul Wilson: Okay, okay. I mean that's simple enough, right?
Phil G.: Right.
Paul Wilson: Can you describe limp mode a little bit? How do I know I'm in limp mode?
Phil G.: Well, you'll have a check engine light will come on. Sometimes the shift indicator is inhibited in limp mode, it depends on the year and model. It'll be in third gear. That is limp mode. You'll start out in third gear and that's the only gear you're going to get. Sometimes, depending on the failure, you may not be able to put it into gear until you shut it off and restart it.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: That's typically, but you'll see those symptoms ... You probably won't even notice when it happens. You'll just end up with the results of it.
Paul Wilson: Right, right. I know back when I had my Kodiak, I drove the '02 Kodiak with 84 inch cab to axle, and I mean it had a million miles on it. I beat the shit out of it. I just drove it to have fun in it. I could put it in the big tune and floor my four five upshift or really give it hell on the five four downshift, guaranteed limp mode every time. You're on the side of the road. It would just immediately limit you to third gear. It would throw the P0700. You look that up, you'd find like "incorrect gear ratio."
Phil G.: Right.
Paul Wilson: Right? Which is the clutches are slipping and that creates an incorrect gear ratio.
Phil G.: Right, and we should talk about the fact that you get a P0700, you get a check engine light and you get a P0700, that's just an indication from the ECM that you need to look at the TCM. If you don't have a scan tool that'll read the TCM, if you're just using a code reader, you won't know exactly what's going on with your transmission. You'll know that the TCM has requested the ECM to turn the light on on the dash to let you know that there is an issue.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, and it's literally that general.
Danny Voss: It's important to have a nicer scan tool in your shop so you can dig into that a little closer.
Phil G.: Absolutely. You cannot diagnose it without it. I mean it just can't be done. You can throw darts at it, but you're not going to know what you're trying to fix.
Paul Wilson: I get a lot of guys with questions about torque converter chatter. How do I diagnose torque converter chatter?
Phil G.: Torque converter chatter may or may not set a code.
Paul Wilson: Okay.
Phil G.: Okay, so you may not have a failure. What it's going to look at is RPM, input RPM, output RPM. That's how it measures slippage on the torque converter clutch.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: Unless you have chatter, you're not going to really know there's a failure. The chatter is exactly how it sounds. I mean when you're applying throttle on an uphill grade or pulling a load, you'll have a driveline chatter that's usually pretty violent.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Phil G.: You'll know it. When you've experienced it, you'll know you've experienced it. There's no question about it, yeah. It's pretty prominent.
Paul Wilson: That's right. You don't need to call anybody and ask, "Do you think that was torque converter chatter?" If you're wondering, it probably wasn't.
Phil G.: It'll shake your seat.
Paul Wilson: It is clearly something's fucked. Okay.
Danny Voss: We need to stop talking about all these failures because I've had a few failures on my transmissions over the years, and you guys are freaking bringing me back to a bad day. When you have a transmission failure, like we talk about at TPS and Duramax Tuner, it's a very emotional thing for our customers. They're spending a lot of money, they're spending a lot of time trying to repair what's going on. It's very important to know everything about it before you start diving into something.
Paul Wilson: Absolutely. Absolutely correct. Okay.
Phil G.: Yeah, having a proper diagnosis before you go in to repair the transmission is important because you can go in and everything might look fine. That's the worst case scenario for a rebuilder is that you didn't diagnose it far enough before you pulled the transmission out and now you've taken the transmission apart and everything looks okay. It's very important that you look far enough to know at least the area where the problem was likely to have occurred.
Paul Wilson: Gotcha. Gotcha. You may not know exactly which piece broke, but you know whereabouts or at least have a good idea this is the only thing it could be, this is the only area it could be.
Phil G.: Right.
Danny Voss: As these trucks get newer, we get more P codes that we have access to. Buy yourself a nice Tech2 or a Solstice scanner, something more expensive, and do yourself a favor.
Paul Wilson: Yeah. There are some other symptoms with your transmission that may not necessarily be detrimental failure. Having the PRNDL display go out ... If you go out one morning and your truck was fine and you really are grandpa who just daily drives it, and you go out and start the truck one day and the PRNDL display is no good, well that's probably not detrimental transmission failure, you know? I think there's some other transmission symptoms that I've gotten questions about. Erratic shifting? Could or couldn't be. That could go either way, but again further diagnostics are needed.
Phil G.: Further diagnostics because electrical failure will still cause a P0700.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: An electrical failure could be the park/neutral switch. It could be one of the input or output sensors. It could be something as simple as a chafed wiring harness. We don't want to condemn the transmission as soon as you see a P0700 because it may or may not be dead.
Paul Wilson: Absolutely.
Danny Voss: It's like a doctor telling you you're sick, but how sick?
Phil G.: Exactly. Right.
Paul Wilson: How pregnant is she, doc? Just tell me. How fucking pregnant is she? Danny and I both have done that now for real. It's crazy.
Danny Voss: That's why, you know, get that code and find out and narrow it down.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk more about diagnostics. As we're thinking, okay, I know there's a problem now. What's my next step if I'm at home? If I'm not Master Tech Phil, what do I do?
Phil G.: Seek professional help. Really, you know. Typically what are people going to do now? They're going to Google it.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Phil G.: You're going to get 1000 different opinions, ideas. "My truck did a similar thing." You're better off having somebody at least pay the money to have it diagnosed.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: Even if you're going to attempt to fix it on your own, have somebody diagnose it for you. If you start throwing darts at it, the parts inside that transmission are very expensive, so every guess you make is an expensive guess.
Paul Wilson: I mean there are some basics I can do, right? I could do a trans fluid inspection. I could at least make sure the level's full.
Phil G.: Right, and if you experience a P0700, let's say, you've gone into limp mode. Stop the truck. Check the fluid. Make sure the fluid level is correct. Check the condition of the fluid. You're going to want to see if it's noticeably burnt, dark, really dark in color. It should be a bright red. If it's really dark in color, it has a distinctive burnt smell to it, you have a problem. That's really what it comes down to. You need to look further.
Danny Voss: Don't just clear the codes?
Phil G.: No, no. If your fluid looks good, the fluid level's where it's supposed to be, yet your transmission is still acting weird or doing things it shouldn't, you still need to have it diagnosed. That's about all we can do. If I get stuck on the side of the road, that's all I can do. I can check the fluid level. I can check the condition of the fluid. I can look underneath it for massive leaks or the wiring harness ripped off of it. Beyond that, what am I going to do?
Paul Wilson: I do always like a visual inspection before I have a customer bring a truck in because I have caught a lot of stupid stuff, you know what I mean? Like you said massive leaks. Hey, listen, if you've got a trans line down, I diagnosed it. That's the problem.
Phil G.: Right. All your fluid's on the highway, then you know you got a problem.
Paul Wilson: If you get it home and you haven't done a external trans filter ever and there's 150,000 miles on the truck, be a rocket scientist, drop the external filter, look at the magnet. There's a magnet on top of the external filter, so when you drop it down there's a big circle. Look at the magnet. Is there anything stuck to it? Do I have a bunch of metal material stuck to my filter?
Phil G.: That is, it's good advice, but if you're inexperienced and you've never looked at one, they always have a little bit of stuff on them.
Paul Wilson: They do. That is true.
Phil G.: You could get freaked out over nothing or you could under-react to something.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: There's not a whole lot you can do. Changing the filter, but at that point change the filter, put it back on the road, clear the codes, drive it, see what happens.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, that's about all there is.
Phil G.: I mean, really, that's all you can do without taking something apart, without spending a good deal of money. Just changing the fluid on one of those is a good deal of money. It uses synthetic fluid. The filter is expensive. It's all an investment, so spend your money wisely is all I can tell you.
Danny Voss: The book says if you're towing heavy, change your fluid every 50,000 miles. If you're not using it hard on a Allison, you can go 100,000 miles. A lot of people, since they think they have an Allison, they can go 100,000+ without doing a service.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, nobody said 200,000, right?
Danny Voss: Right.
Phil G.: No.
Paul Wilson: That's what we find is the guys who do have 800,000 mile Duramaxs, they know what the maintenance intervals are, right? They're paying attention to that stuff. They're on top of it. They're in tune with it. They're aware of it. I think that's a part of the prevention that we'll talk about here at the end. What I'd love to dive into, Phil, is understanding what parts actually fail inside an Allison? What are the problems that we see?
Phil G.: Well, when you're looking at it ...
Paul Wilson: We can edit this part.
Phil G.: All hell has broken loose. When you're looking at a failure that may or may not be due to adding power, let's say, and you know that you've added power to your truck or you haven't. You've added power to the truck and now you're experiencing some kind of a failure. You're getting the P0700. You're in limp mode. Typically the cause of that'll be the C3, C4 clutches. They can't hold the power. They're slipping a little bit, and it doesn't take much, and it'll set that code. The transmission is constantly, or the TCM is constantly watching input and output speeds, input into the transmission and output out of the transmission, watching the RPMs on those. When it selects the next gear, it expects the result on the output shaft to change in speed. Engine RPM will change and output shaft speed should change. If it doesn't see that, and I mean within 50 RPM, it's going to set the code.
Paul Wilson: Gotcha.
Phil G.: At that point, you know you have a problem and typically it's the C3, C4 clutches are slipping.
Paul Wilson: Now the C3 clutches, they get used the most out of all of the clutch packs. Is that correct?
Phil G.: Yeah, they're engaged all the time.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Phil G.: Yeah.
Danny Voss: That's why the C3 oiler has been such a popular deal to add to a transmission.
Phil G.: It's a great idea, yeah.
Paul Wilson: Because we don't get common lubrication there, right? If you're looking at a built transmission and somebody offers you the C3 oiler, like in our DT750 package, it's a no-brainer. You really should do it.
Phil G.: Right. It keeps it cooler. It's added lubrication, but it's mostly for cooling.
Paul Wilson: Really?
Phil G.: Yeah, it mostly cools that clutch pack down. That's primarily its purpose.
Paul Wilson: Gotcha, okay. What other parts are common to fail in an Allison? What else would we run into once we start adding power?
Phil G.: You're going to see, well, we talked about torque converters earlier and that's the other weak link in a stock transmission. The torque converter, it has a single clutch in it. The torque converter clutches on the diesels lock up early, early in the RPM range. They're meant to hold throughout the powers band, and if you've added power or you're pulling a heavy load and you've added power, it's going to slip.
Danny Voss: You're going to push through that converter.
Phil G.: Oh yeah.
Danny Voss: Oh yeah. I've done it.
Phil G.: We've all done it, yeah.
Paul Wilson: Okay, so I've seen another one of them that even after they do like a mild build or maybe just like an intermediate build on the transmission, there's still some parts that end up failing afterwards. That's really once we're getting into like the big, high horsepower stuff. One I've seen very commonly, I don't know if it's as of the last two years that we've just seen all these more common street driven big twin turbo trucks and things like that, but seen a lot of P2 Planetaries getting twisted apart.
Phil G.: Yeah, and that's true, but I think the reason you're seeing more now is there's just more trucks that are built. I mean this whole sport, this whole hobby, has gone up a few notches over the last few years. A typical truck, it used to be if you had 500 horsepower in your diesel truck, you were badass.
Danny Voss: I'm still badass.
Phil G.: Now, eh not so much. Sorry, Danny. I think that's the difference. The P2 Planet, that one is either really high horsepower or it really depends on how the driver uses the truck. If your truck is prone to wheel hops, stop it unless you want to buy a P2 Planet because it's going to go.
Paul Wilson: Wheel hop is one of those things that could just destroy a transmission.
Phil G.: Absolutely.
Paul Wilson: We've seen it rip the case apart.
Phil G.: We've seen it break cases and it'll destroy a driveshaft.
Paul Wilson: Oh yeah.
Phil G.: If you've got a two piece driveshaft in your truck and you're letting your truck wheel hop, you're going to have driveline failures left and right.
Paul Wilson: You're going to be done-zo.
Phil G.: That's it. You're going to be sitting on the side of the road looking underneath it.
Paul Wilson: Okay, okay. I would say that horsepower plus the need of a driver mod equaling abuse is the most common cause for failure. Just people out having too much fun.
Danny Voss: I just want to say, we are talking like a wheel hop situation is a no-brainer to get out of, but I can't tell you how many people don't think that way. Just little things like this, they continue to drive it that way and they wonder why they have a failure.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, that is very true. Wheel hop generally will not happen on a tollway with your cruise control set at 60 miles an hour, so there's no point telling us that story. Wheel hop usually, like where I've seen it the most for me is when we're off-road, right? If we're running down a dirt trail with the trucks and we're hitting ruts or anything like that, wheel hop is really, really common. I've seen it get common, guys out really beating on the trucks when you're not on a track. If you are out on a residential road and there's a bunch of cracks and potholes and shit like that, that's another real good place to come across wheel hop. 80 miles and hour across a speed bump will cause wheel hop, just so you know.
Phil G.: What wheel hop is, just in case ...
Paul Wilson: Please, yeah.
Phil G.: Wheel hop is when the rear tires come off the ground, they're completely released from traction, and then the weight of the truck comes back down on the wheels and now you've been hit with this huge shock to the driveline system as it gains traction again.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Phil G.: Wheel hop on the street is typically caused by somebody doing a burnout, running it all the way out, and when the truck starts to hook is when wheel hop occurs.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Phil G.: At the end of the burnie, when it's really starting to hook. The adrenaline's flowing. We're into it. We're having a great time ripping up the pavement.
Paul Wilson: Woo!
Phil G.: Yeah, and then the P2 Planetary falls out of the truck.
Danny Voss: I mean that's amateur stuff. If I get into a wheel hop, I'm out of that burnout and I'm done being Mr. Cool Guy. I mean you're done.
Phil G.: Right, because it's extremely expensive. The P2 Planet and its associated parts will cost you over $1000 just for those pieces.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, that's no installation.
Phil G.: No installation.
Paul Wilson: That's just to have them in your hand.
Danny Voss: For our listeners, what happens to that P2 Planet? Just to look at it and try to describe that.
Phil G.: There's a snout on it, and that's the best way I can describe it. There's a threaded snout, it has teeth cut in it, and it'll twist that snout off of the P2 Planet. It's kind of the input for the P2 Planet and it'll twist that right off.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. It's cool looking when they go.
Danny Voss: Yeah.
Paul Wilson: Like seeing that ... I mean not cool for like the truck owner, but for me who gets to look at it, it's cool. I get it. You think when you hold that piece, because that's not a small piece, you would think this is a really badass heavy duty piece in a diesel truck. Then you think about how much power it took to twist it.
Danny Voss: Yeah.
Phil G.: It is a badass piece.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, oh yeah.
Phil G.: When you think about it, you go back to what we talked about earlier with the guy with the big truck who's pulling the Bobcat and he's been doing it for 250,000 miles, and that piece is still in there.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: It's a badass piece, but road shock is what it is. If you hit something with your hand, you get so much force.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: Hit it with a five pound sledgehammer.
Paul Wilson: Yeah. That's really what it is.
Phil G.: I mean that's the difference.
Paul Wilson: No, that's a great way to put it.
Phil G.: That's the difference between just flooring your truck and now you create wheel hop.
Paul Wilson: Yeah.
Phil G.: Now you're hitting it with a five pound sledgehammer over and over and over again. It is what it is.
Danny Voss: Some things that I've done on my truck to help eliminate that or help reduce it if I get into a situation like that is I run the Merchant Automotive transfer case brace. I feel like that's helped a little bit, just try to strengthen that case up like we were talking about a little bit more so you don't get that flex.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, I think traction bars too help a little bit with keeping the tires on the ground. I know they're there to prevent axle wrap, but I do find trucks with traction bars ... Again, maybe not in the extreme burnout situation where once you're hooking up you've made the truck more rigid so you actually have a little bit more prone to wheel hop. I do feel like those guys, I don't know if it's just that they're more advance with their truck, they understand their trucks a little bit better, little bit further into their build they don't seem to have that problem as often.
Danny Voss: If you're that high horsepower guy, we have a hardened snout like we're talking about that we can upgrade you on. That's important if you're up around that, I would ... What do you think, six plus? 600 horse plus typically.
Paul Wilson: Jesus, no you pansy. 750 horsepower plus.
Danny Voss: Not this again.
Paul Wilson: I'm just giving you a hard time.
Danny Voss: Like you were saying, it matters how you drive it.
Phil G.: It matters how you drive it, yeah. On the subject you just started, the 750 horsepower, I mean yeah, those transmissions, our transmissions, will hold that kind of power with no problem. It depends on how you drive it.
Paul Wilson: Yeah. I will say if you have 40 inch tires and you're looking at like a 750 horsepower build, you're going to want to do a P2 Planetary. I don't think that you need one at 650, but if you drive it really hard and you beat the shit out of it really hard, maybe. Maybe that's something you should consider.
Danny Voss: I will agree with you ...
Paul Wilson: Perfect.
Danny Voss: ... on that, so we can move forward. I absolutely ... Because I don't want to get into a whole 'nother episode about this.
Paul Wilson: Let's talk about some other fixes for the Allison. I totally agree, Danny. Okay, so if we're looking at improving what our shortcomings are with the Allison, what goes into building one? What goes into fixing the problems from the factory?
Phil G.: Well as we talked about, the C3 and C4 clutches are usually the reason that it's slipping. They can't hold the power. What holds the power in the transmission is the friction material on the clutches. The clutch kits we use have more friction material.
Paul Wilson: That's pretty simple.
Phil G.: I mean it's not rocket science. The modifications made to the transmission, pistons, and housings allow us to put more clutches in them.
Paul Wilson: Gotcha.
Phil G.: If you add more friction material, we use a better grade of friction material than what comes in the factory transmission, so it helps hold it better. We're increasing the pressures behind the pistons so you have more clamping power and it holds better. I mean that's really it.
Paul Wilson: That it? Okay, so we increasing holding capacity with clutches and steels.
Phil G.: Exactly.
Paul Wilson: Okay, I know we also add a shift kit to them.
Phil G.: That's where the pressure comes from.
Paul Wilson: Okay, so that's where we're actually able to apply pressure to our clutches and steels. They get a triple disk billet torque converter, because we talked about the single clutch torque converter just not being enough.
Phil G.: Right, and it's the same theory. We're adding more friction material.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: That's it. Apply more pressure to more friction material, it holds better.
Paul Wilson: Okay. Now, one thing is, I think once we talk about opening up the transmission and we're rebuilding all of the internals, it's really common for guys to say the electronics were good when it came in, rebuild all of this that we just talked about, and ship it back out. Why does Duramax Tuner not do it that way?
Phil G.: Because if you spend the money that it takes to buy one of our transmissions, and whether you have the electronics in or don't put the electronics in because yours were fine, what happens a month from now when a sensor fails? What happens a month from now when the shift indicator fails? You're still stranded on the side of the road. That doesn't change. Now, like Danny was talking about earlier, this is a traumatic event. When your transmission fails, this is a big deal. This is not a "my car needs breaks," okay? This is a big deal. Then you drive it for a month and now you're still stranded on the side of the road. You have to pay for a tow. We're trying to avoid that by building them all the same way, putting all the electronics in, try to avoid failures down the road.
Danny Voss: I priced out the electronics if you were to do it. It's right around $1000.
Paul Wilson: By the time you're done with everything that goes with them.
Danny Voss: For people to reuse the electronics when you could just do it right upfront and pay a little bit upfront and not have to worry about it, we'd rather see that.
Paul Wilson: Yeah, that makes sense.
Danny Voss: Because we know it's going to fail.
Phil G.: Well, and think about, and this is what our customers should think about, is that how long did that transmission last before you came to us? Now it started out life with all new electronics, everything was new inside of it. How long did it last? Think about it that way. Now you have improved the power. We're going to give you an improved transmission, better holding power, all new electronics. You're starting from square one again. It's the right way to do it.
Paul Wilson: Okay, that makes sense.
Danny Voss: How many times have we seen people have to spend money in the same place and it's so frustrating for a customer to have to do that, no matter if it's injectors, if it's transmission work. It's tough when you have to spend it twice.
Paul Wilson: Are you saying people don't want to spend money fixing the same part multiple times?
Danny Voss: Nobody wants to do that, Paul. That's insane.
Paul Wilson: Okay, so let's talk prevention. How do I keep myself out of being broke and on the side of the road? If my only goal in life is to stick at a tune [trocket 00:37:59], near stock power levels and I just want to tool around and have fun, what are some of the things I can do to keep myself out of having to have a failed transmission? Danny, I know you had one.
Danny Voss: I've had, yeah, some transmission failures. One time I'll openly admit because I want to use this is as a learning deal because I learned the hard way. Always redo the things inside the transmission. What I mean by that is the bearings, the seal kit. I mean I reused my bearings once and the trans had around 200,000 on it. I didn't want to order the parts because I was anxious to get my trans together because I had a pull coming up. I said, "Hey, you know, let's toss it back in there."
Long story short, probably about 30 hooks later and maybe 50,000 miles, I was driving home from Colorado, been a long drive, and I tore up the bearing that rides on the input shaft. I was in third gear and I was only one mile away from my house, and I'm a big Packer fan, and the Packers were about ready to kick off, and I'm thinking, "Oh, I only have a mile left. I can hit the clear P700, get that out of there and I'll make it home and watch the Packer game and have a beer with my old man. I haven't seen him in a while." Yep, I'm on the side of the road with fluid coming out of the overflow and then getting my exhaust. Now I have a smoking LBZ on the side of the road and I'm missing kickoff, man.
Paul Wilson: I mean that's still better than watching a Packers game, so I don't know why you're upset.
Phil G.: Absolutely.
Danny Voss: Oh, you guys, man. I bleed green and gold, so hey. I'm going to stand up for ... That's another podcast. I have a piece of Lambeau Field in my backyard from the old turf, the old field. They were selling it.
Paul Wilson: Magic beans from that guys who was trading for the cow as well, too, huh?
Danny Voss: Hey, you know, I'm a shareholder. I own a piece of Lambeau in my backyard and life couldn't be better for me.
Paul Wilson: Okay, okay. Danny's saying that you should make sure when you do open up the transmission you do everything right. That's a great way to prevent having multiple failures, or like you said, being in the worst case scenario where you have to spend money on the same part twice. I know awareness is another big one. Be aware of what you're doing. We talked a lot today about potential driver issues that can cause transmission failures. Pretty much be fucking smart. It's a transmission, it's not a bulletproof piece of billet steel. It can break.
Phil G.: Yeah, use it as designed.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: It's designed to be operated a certain way. Now after you've done the modifications that we do to our DT750, you can modify the way you drive it.
Paul Wilson: Right.
Phil G.: If it's a stock transmission and all you've got is a tune in the truck, you can still break that transmission.
Paul Wilson: Gotcha, okay. Then I think that brings me to my last point about prevention and that's proper tuning. A lot of times Danny and I will get requests when we're over at Duramax Tuner, guys asking, "Hey, I have a stock trans, but I want to put built trans tunes on it. What do I risk?" I feel like that's very obvious, but we're going to say it here on the podcast. You risk breaking your transmission. If you match up the tuning for what you have now, you can always upgrade your tuning when you upgrade your parts later. That's the cool part about custom tuning. Just be smart. You got an expensive truck, put the proper tuning on it so you get the best out of it.
Phil G.: Absolutely.
Paul Wilson: Excellent.
Danny Voss: Why wear those hard parts down if it's not necessary?
Paul Wilson: Yeah, I'm right there with you. Awesome, guys. Well I think this was a very good in-depth review of P0700 troubleshooting and Allison transmission troubleshooting in general. Phil, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you taking your time out to come and talk to us.
Phil G.: Thanks for having me.
Danny Voss: On outro applause. Well, I'll tell you what, he's a Master Certified Tech and we appreciate the history you shared with us today.
Paul Wilson: Absolutely. This has been Paul Wilson.
Danny Voss: I'm Danny Voss.
Paul Wilson: Thanks for listening.
Calibrated Power Solutions,the leading North American developer of clean diesel power and home of DuramaxTuner.com is the proud sponsor of The Diesel Performance Podcast. Calibrated Power develops emissions equipped tunes for a wide variety of diesel powertrains, including the Duramax, Cummins, Jeep, John Deere, and many more. For more information and the best customer service in the industry, check out calibratedpower.com or call (815) 568-7920. That's (815) 568-7920. To reach out to The Diesel Performance podcast, send us a message through Facebook or email paul@duramaxtuner.com or danny@duramaxtuner.com.
Danny Voss: Yeah, I was racing the 2.8 and I was telling people, "Don't be hating when I'm two-point-eighting."
Paul Wilson: He's been waiting since Saturday, Saturday to Friday, for that line to get it into a podcast. I love it.
